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MarilyninOttawa
I began stem propagating Phals before I grew many orchids...way
back in 1972...so I am looking forward to discussions tonight.
John in Arcadia
I tried that also using that "keiki" paste. It worked
for me somewhat.
MarilyninOttawa
This was before I knew about keiki paste. I was planting sections
of inflorescence in sterile medium. Worked well for many but
not all plants attempted. I learned how age of stem was important.
I still prefer stem props to mericlones for phals.
John in Arcadia
I agree. Stem props seem to be very good. No chance of mutation
I think.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
I tried it some years ago. I never did get a keiki at the nodes
on the spike where I placed the paste. I did get all the new
developing leaves to grow curved, kinked and deformed. Then it
put out some basal off shoots that turned out to not be deformed
so I did finally duplicate the plant.
MarilyninOttawa
Sometimes it works and sometimes you get rather deformed growths.
Most growths ultimately do revert to normal but sometimes not.
N_Calif_Kathy
Well, shall we begin? Like I say I'm not sure how we'll proceed.
I was happy to have found the two pages on other uses for mericlones,
one a charitable use. I take it the Boy's Brigade is similar
to the Boy Scouts in Singapore, and so have a plant named for
them. Den. The Boy's Brigade, which is being propagated, I assume
proceeds go to benefit the Brigade button
and I saw that the mericloning process can be used in orchid
conservtion with rare species. At least one group is trying to
ease collection pressures by meristemming Den moschatum (sp)
button
MarilyninOttawa
I was wondering if we could start the ball rolling with a question
or two. 1 - If you own mericlones, why and are you satisfied?
2 - Why would you prefer to own an unbloomed seedling?
John in Arcadia
#1 I do own mericlones and that way I can have good plants without
paying too much. #2 I like seedlings as than I have a chance
to get a good plant than no one else has. That one chance in
many hundreds is the gamble we all love. I also buy divisions
as that way I have something not too many others have
AHowle
I did my senior year college seminar on mericloning of orchids
in 1973. Think that's when I first started going to Carter and
Holmes. Main reason I like clones is you know what you will get,
in theory, doesn't always happen that way though. Then again
the thrill with blooming seedlings is you don't really know what
you will get. Best of both worlds.
Susan in Idaho
I've enjoyed some Oncidium hybrid mericlones. GREAT plants for
cheap. Can't complain.
Jim4Eq
I buy some clones of awarded plants, but prefer seedlings for
breeding species. Not many cloned species and I hope it stays
that way.
John in Arcadia
Selfing species seems to be better than mericloning one to me.
Maybe I am wrong but selfing would give about the same results
I think.
pectelis in KY
The Eureka Factor!
N_Calif_Kathy
Agreed, I'd like to think I could get the one FCC in the grex!
I try not to buy mericlones, and I try to buy seedlings because
I want individuals. Maybe awardable individuals.
John in Arcadia
WE all want that one plant!! LOL
AHowle
Depends on what you want plants for. I have never sent plant
off to judging and probably never will.
Ed_in_Sat
The hybridizers of the world have just elected you Pres, Kath.
I'd like to add that commercial growers love mericlones because
the crop is predictable, almost identical and matures for market
at the same time in the form and quality presold.
N_Calif_Kathy
Ed, I'm the last of a dying breed, I guess!
Art, So you like to know the caliber of the flower you'll be
getting?
MarilyninOttawa
Producing thousands of identical plants for sale at a low price
is one of the drivers - mass marketing. I am not certain about
the conservation value but provided the number of propagules
of Den. moschatum or other species is limited, the chance of
deleterious mutation is likewise limited.
N_Calif_Kathy
In reading through the web and Arditti's books I've become impressed
with the chances of mutations. I had always assumed that mericlones
were bulletproof.
Susan from Idaho
I buy a lot of species as unbloomed seedlings.
AHowle
There is nothing wrong with seedlings. I bet 1/2 of mine are
but there is a place for clones also. Unless you have room in
your greenhouse to buy several of each cross you might end up
with a lot of so-so flowers.
Pectelis in KY
That is natural.
AHowle
If it were not for cloning most of us would not be able to afford
as many plants as we have.
N_Calif_Kathy
True! It certainly has created cheap readily available orchids.
(That sounds like a slam, but I don't mean it that way)
Janetteh
If you want to buy seedlings, the way to go is to know the hybridizer.
There are some people who really research before they make a
seed cross and others who don't.
barbara_in_no._CA
That, I totally agree. I've learned the hard way.
Jade_in_GR
Art, those of us who raise predominantly species depend on seedlings
and divisions almost completely. The mystery of what the blooms
will look like is half of the fun of growing.
AHowle
Not really true for species Jade. You really know approx. what
you are getting but since most species are selfings now you don't
know exactly what will happen.
Ed_in_Sat
Marilyn, again commercially, meristems are actually more expensive
to produce, plant for plant, than normally propagated plants
of the same size.
MarilyninOttawa
But because of their uniformity, they may be more saleable?
N_Calif_Kathy
Well, can we talk about that? Then why is the market moving to
meristems? I assumed it was because they could have a known product
that they knew would sell. So hang the cost. It would be better
than putting all your hopes in a non-productive hybrid.
Susan from Oregon
For mass market, a plant that wont bloom on a time schedule,
wont sell, no matter how inexpensive it is to produce. No one
buys unbloomed plants at Wal-Mart.
Ed_in_Sat
That is precisely the point, Kath. My response to Marilyn was
that meristem production costs are slightly higher than that
of conventional plants. Not exactly 'hang the cost' but a factor
that can be recovered because of the relatively higher % salable
from a meristem group.
Because of their uniformity they merchandise
better in large lots. At Aalsmeer (the clock auction) they sell
in 100 lots. Mass buyers do not seek huge variability within
each lot. Too hard to enforce contract terms and maintain quality.
MarilyninOttawa
The orchid-consuming public is divided into groups including
those looking for a 'disposable' plant (an orchid! - in bloom
and ready to impress; those wanting quality for a low price (well
lower than it would have been when plants could only be propagated
by division); and those wanting to gamble for the ultimate prize
- a winner!! Pardon if I have over simplified ...
Ed_in_Sat
Meristems make great disposable plants. Probably more sold for
that purpose than any other.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
Thank goodness! No chance of throwing away an undiscovered FCC
that way.
Jim4Eq
Some market considerations in favor of stems: 1) known bloom
time and type; 2) stable flowers of chosen quality, with a few
rare exceptions; 3) known vigor; 3) no empty pods; 4) stable
flower of chosen quality; 5) often known bloom trigger so that
you can initiate them to bloom for show
N_Calif_Kathy
Good points, Jim. Bad points for me as the newly elected President
of the Hybridizers Association, but all good economic considerations.
barbara_in_no._CA
I must be doing some thing very wrong, the few times I had meristem
plants, all were disappointment to me, they are not as healthy
to grow.
Pectelis in KY
Remember that Canadian quintuplet case? I think there were originally
two eggs. Both split. One died, second split. Point was that
none of them are identical, though they ought to have been, according
to what was known of inheritance then. Now we know that there
are many slips in the spindle, the viability of genes, etc. In
hybrids you complicate matters by introducing contrary genes,
incompatible, genes, activation and sequestering. Only the general
will to overcome problems and live makes some clones viable at
all.
John in Arcadia
Mine have been growing fine. Tha Blc Goldenzelle was obviously
a mericlone and it has been doing very nicely.
barbara_in_no._CA
Guess must be my careless growing habits
John in Arcadia
I doubt that you have poor growing habits. Maybe you bought plants
that were not suited to your growing conditions. All catts do
not grow alike as I can sure tell you!! LOL
Susan from Idaho
Somewhere I came across a theory that some clones get "old"
and all at once all of one clone will lose vigor. Has anyone
else heard such a thing
John in Arcadia
Susan, I have. I think that orchids have a finite life span and
then they just start going down hill for no apparent reason.
Ed_in_Sat
You bet, and I am a firm believer in that line of thinking. You
have probably noticed some favorite plants all disappear from
collections at or near the same time. Even if one can maintain
them, they never return to their original glory. Some, on the
other hand, remain outstanding for extremely long periods: Den.
Gatton 'Sunray' for example.
John in Arcadia
Ed, Blc. Harliquin 'Act I' is a plant that has disappeared after
going down hill very quickly.
Ed_in_Sat
Yes, indeed, John. You might include the great white Phals of
our youth: Cast Iron Monarch, et al. They certainly were not
dumped because they were undesirable.
N_Calif_Kathy
Along those lines, Barbara, I was going to ask Ed about some
mericlones that have been over cloned, such that they go into
a decline or are disappointing. I think that was the comment
on the AOS Forum that got this whole thread started. Andy Easton
mentioned that growers still have to do their homework in terms
of mericloning a plant that a) will respond at the person's home
environment and b) will be a good candidate for even GH conditions.
I had invited Andy to come here tonight, to amplify, but I don't
think he's here.
janetteh
Is there a variation in quality of plants when meristemming?
In other words, do some people know what they are doing and others
don't so that you get lesser quality plants? I'm not talking
about quality of flowers...rather good, strong, healthy plants
from the meristemming process.
John in Arcadia
Kathy, is one of the problems that some mericloners do not start
with a division of the original plant but meristem from a meristem?
And that can be several generations back to the original.
AHowle
I have been told that if a plant has been cloned many times or
maybe they were cloning a clone repeatedly you will get less
than desired results sometimes
Ed_in_Sat
Kath, some labs meristem a meristem of a meristem of a meristem
ad nauseum. Quality goes down steadily with such practice. It
is the same with normal breeding. The umpteen time removed meristem
makes a progressively less attractive parent.
MarilyninOttawa
Exactly, John! When you clone a clone of a clone... you run the
risk of mutation. Not all mutations affect flower quality. You
can have mutations which affect vigor. Conservation of virus-free
stock plants is essential.
Ed_in_Sat
Some work must be done in this area as soon as funding can be
found. I have a suspicion that not all DNA is identical in each
meristem even from a first cloning. The condition certainly does
not improve with subsequent cloning of progeny.
AHowle
When I did my original paper back in 1973 one of the reasons
listed for cloning was to produce virus free plants from virused
plant. Think it has been proven since then that this is not true
N_Calif_Kathy
No, I think it still is true if one uses certain parts of the
plant as source tissue, like a very early root tip.
MarilyninOttawa
I think that this has been shown in Dendrobium.
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
I remember hearing a lot about that back in the 70s. Nothing
about that in recent years. It must have worked sometimes.
MarilyninOttawa
Several of us of raised the point that we want to have an 'original',
a unique individual clone that no one else has. The second pay-off
comes from the thrill of discovery - seeing that plant bloom
for the first time. I do own some mericlones such as Lc. Mildred
Rives 'Orchidglade' but the greatest joy comes from those seedlings
blooming for the first time. Perhaps one of the questions we
can ask next is how to access more quality seedlings?
N_Calif_Kathy
Actually I was wondering if the 'world of orchids' was becoming
a two level system. That there was the box store plants and the
hobbyist plants. And I've wondered if this was at all analogous
to the years of the 'cut flower trade' where there were plants
that were great for the cut flower trade and then there were
plants that only a hobbyist could love...
MarilyninOttawa
I would agree.
Susan from Idaho
Yes. I don't see it as a bad thing.
John in Arcadia
Marilyn, a seedling blooming for the first time is wonderful
but making a cross yourself then blooming the first one is even
a more satisfying and thrilling experience!! I have several on
my own crosses that are going to bloom more first-timers this
year and it is really exciting.
janetteh
Marilyn, are you talking about good quality seedlings in general
or for species? I think that the buying public sort of dictates
what is going to be offered and as long as there are large numbers
of people who want pot plants, the incentive is not there to
produce quality seedlings. One area that is the exception is
paphs mainly because you can't meristem them.
MarilyninOttawa
Janette, I am not sure what the driver of plants for sale in
big box stores is but whatever sells is sure to be re-ordered.
Ed_in_Sat
Box store orchids are never, to my knowledge, bought or sold
(by the boxes) as individual plants. Certainly not by name. The
UPC killed individually identified pots on the box store rack.
AHowle
But it is disappointing when seedling turn out to be dogs
janetteh
Especially if you have been waiting 5 or 6 years to see it bloom.
John in Arcadia
If they are your own "children" none are really dogs
no matter what they might look like!!! LOL
AHowle
True John but that is different. Not all of us can afford to
purchase $40-$60 dollar plants. Of course there have been times
when I've seen blooming seedlings I wished I had purchased but
instead bought the cheaper unflowered one and was disappointed
Susan from Idaho
I've bought pretty much nothing but the cheapest of the cheap,
and done a lot of swapping. I've rarely paid more than 15.00
for a plant, AND I've had some real nice ones.
N_Calif_Kathy
And I have wondered if orchid hybridization was going to become
a 'niche industry' relegated to the interested hobbyist like
John or Fred Clarke, rather than a big house. So the days of
Stewart Orchids Carter & Holmes etc are numbered.
Jim4Eq
Market forces will always require new "models". Otherwise,
you get last year's flower, and you can't one-up the neighbor
that way. Look at cars, since the Model-T they have new models
every year. Fashion, fast food, television shows, everything
has a business cycle.
N_Calif_Kathy
As long as *someone* is creating the seedlings I want, LOL!!
John in Arcadia
I have always said that an interested novice will try things
that a commercial grower can't as the cost to him would be so
much more than to the novice. That is why I cross many things
and I have been a little successful as time goes by. I will show
some photos later in the season of what my seedlings look like.
Ed_in_Sat
The full service orchid house today is a dinosaur from way back.
When I first came into commercial orchids, we counted probably
50 world class houses. One producer even owned an airplane that
he used to supply both coasts with plants and cut flowers. No
more. Today, with the same investment, one can sell 1,000 orchids
to the boxes in the time it takes to serve one customer who bumps
your profit off the benches.
janetteh
I think that the economics of the situation comes into play as
well. A small time commercial person can have a rather small
gh and buy blooming orchids (meristems) from some of the Hawaiian
or other big growers when they have a show or something big going
on and make a decent living at it. Compare this to the grower
who makes his own crosses, flasks them, compots them and then
waits for them to bloom before he can sell them. He has to have
a lot more space which is going to put the cost of that plant
a lot higher in the long run. Plus some of his crosses may turn
out to be real dogs that he can't sell even to the uninformed
public.
Ed_in_Sat
You're on the right track, Janette. Bulk plants today come from
offshore suppliers who are government-supported in several ways.
In the near tomorrow, more plants than you can imagine will be
coming in (in pot) from offshore government-owned facilities.
John in Arcadia
I understand that a Taiwan grower is producing plants in Central
America for the US market as the labor is cheaper and the travel
costs of the larger plants is less than if they were produced
in Taiwan.
N_Calif_Kathy
I hadn't even considered those sorts of market pressures. Government
sponsored program will tilt the playing field.
Ed_in_Sat
Again, the right track, John, but you'll understand a lot more
if you study CAFTA than you will if you proceed down the $ trail.
MarilyninOttawa
I hybridize, line breed species, and experiment within natural
populations. Certainly there is a joy of creating something unique.
I have had my share of not so perfect outcomes. One I called
Masd Dainty Miss because I felt I had missed what I had hoped
for but that was after the first blooms. Later, as the plants
matured, they have produced truly stunning long-tailed beauties
= so you never can be sure. Since I get the same 'charge' out
of seeing a seedling bloom for the first time and of my goldfish
producing longer tails with sucessive generations, I suspect
that the lure is in the challenge of producing something unique.
John in Arcadia
Yes, that is truly it. I am sure that is why I make many of my
crosses.
N_Calif_Kathy
As to Jim's idea of the market needing new models.... but orchid
shows are filled with vendors selling the same plants!!!! And
they all get them from the same sources! It leads to a very boring
sales tent IMHO.
Janetteh
Even at Redlands you are beginning to see a lot of the same thing.
Maybe not meristems, but still not a whole lot of variety.
Susan from Idaho
True! Do you remember the year of Oncidium Twinkle? About 10
years ago.
janetteh
And it is still selling well. (And I still like it.) :-)
Jim4Eq
While some are perpetual, write a list of the clones available
this year, and compare that list to the clones available next
year. Sharry Baby sweet fragrance is classic, but the new short
Sharry and the yellowish Sharry are new.
MarilyninOttawa
At a recent show, it was telling how the public purchased from
one vendor more than others, and it had little to do with price.
One was selling what the public wanted that day - blooming Cattleyas,
while the other was selling blooming Ascocendas which in previous
years had sold well. Phals were bought from all stands.
N_Calif_Kathy
Also, many vendors (local - small, but renown) are reconsidering
selling anything but meristems. Phal growers are only selling
meristems of their 'best' orchids, small vendors are doing the
math and deciding to dedicate their bench space to the meristems
that sell. So what's a hobbyist to do? Where shall I go to buy
my seedlings or oddball orchids? Will I have to travel to Florida
for Redlands? Or start making my own crosses?
Janetteh
And another pretty major phal hybridizer is going out of business
in our area....Mark Rose of Breckinridge Orchids.
John in Arcadia
And Zuma Canyon really isn't making any crosses any more! Raising
only Meristems from what I saw when I was there last. It is a
terrible thing. I can remember when I would go and see a truly
beautiful and wonderful new thing that only they had.
Janetteh
Zuma has an announcement of their website about it. Said that
they were no longer going to sell seed crosses. Would bloom out
all of their crosses and select a few for meristems and that
is all that they will be selling.
N_Calif_Kathy
Eric Goo of Phoenix Orchids says the same on his web page about
his red and sunset tone phals. Meristems only.
Ed_in_Sat
Eric is one of the very best hybridizers. He and Mary would throw
me out if I went to them with a mass-market proposal. Thank goodness!
His stuff is superb.
N_Calif_Kathy
Well he says he's selling mericlones only. No more seedlings.
Ed_in_Sat
Yeah, I read the web site, too. If Eric completely puts away
his toothpick, look for a huge star to rise in the east.
Ed_in_Sat
We'll always have small hybridizers, some quite good, who make
new things because they believe in their work. I don't see Meir
Moses doing crosses for the box market, for example. Just don't
get the idea the box market is the bad guy or where you dump
your trash. Standards are high and practice is becoming better.
I assume all this progress is because they hire the very best
consultants.
AHowle
You should be in our shoes Kathy. How many outlets do you have
within 2-hrs drive?
Steve_in_the_Adirondacks
I don't think I have one within 3 hours.
John in Arcadia
I still find very fine things at our local Trader Joe's market
and I do buy them!!!
N_Calif_Kathy
So what then is the hobbyist to do? Are we going to be like the
landed gentry of old and trade amongst the few dedicated hobbyists?
janetteh
Maybe. There is a lot of that going on already and will continue
to be.
MarilyninOttawa
There are enterprises that offer flasking services (but you must
make the crosses). There are other nurseries still creating their
own hybrids of Odontoglossum and intergenerics, Miltoniopsis,
etc.
Jim4Eq
I think we'll see a tightening of the offering, fewer seedlings.
But the pressure for new items will mean that the crosses still
get made, but only select individuals will get cloned and sold.
This also affects the pipeline, since you first have to bloom
the seedlings for 5 years and then cloning takes another 5 years
to bloom. So it doubles the time to market. The advantage will
be that you have a unique product, but 10,000 copies of it. Some
vendors do this somewhat already, blooms out the seedlings and
sells the average ones, while keeping select plants for cloning.
Ed_in_Sat
Folks, don't cry too many tears for what was. The market was
always there and the commercials you remember so favorably did
not meet the need. Others did, using methods you still find less
warm and fuzzy than of old. Rightly so! You'll note most of the
warm fuzzies are gone. Today, orchids are the number two flowering
plant sold in this country. Sales are pushing toward ten MILLION
units per year. That demand was always in the market. Don't crucify
the people who saw it and met it. Certainly don't blame the few
who helped to create it and give it a name.
N_Calif_Kathy
Very true Ed. When next we meet we'll drink a toast to the way
things were and you'll tell me how to start my own hybridization
program... *G*
Jim4Eq
Would we do that?? Well, ok, yeah we would. But you're right.
The market has changed and those who don't meet the new conditions
are going to be hurt. Like Detroit in the seventies when they
refused to meet the MPG of the imports.
Ed_in_Sat
You do not change what is by lamenting what was.
N_Calif_Kathy
One last comment before we end. I had made the comment on the
Orchid Guide Digest that people could now meristem Paphs from
leaves. I got answers that Paphs still are hard to meristem they
have a high rate of mutation, and there isn't a market for them
anyway. Do we think that meristemming some of these paphs would
take collection pressures off paphs and phrags) in the wild?
Or am I polly anna?
MarilyninOttawa
Hard to say what would happen but I expect that specialist growers
would want to see the proof before investing heavily.
Ed_in_Sat
Paphs are the next great market plant. When the money is there,
they will be produced. Try this: the best growing area in the
US today is just south of John.
Susan from Idaho
No market for Paphs.....this year. Maybe mass produced Paphs
will be the big thing for 2006. If I had money to invest, I'd
bet on Paphs being the next big market plant.
N_Calif_Kathy
Ed, I had floated that idea around people I know and they all
scoffed at me, saying the water was crap. But didn't mention
that housing tracts full of Americans were setting up across
the border, all with potable water.... so something's amiss.
I got vision and the rest of the world's wearing bifocals.
Ed_in_Sat
Salt may bother a Paph but Calcium carbonate? How many Paph species
thrive on and seem to prefer calcareous rock. Even those in a
heavy overburden love that CACO3 buffering action.
N_Calif_Kathy
Re the next big plant being paphs, Andy Easton says their market
research says people think paphs look evil and so they don't
believe there's a market for them.
Jade_in_GR
Well, you can keep the Bulldog types.
Jim4Eq
Paphs ARE evil! They always die on me without blooming, *sigh*
Jade_in_GR
Thanks, Marilyn. This topic was really a change of pace and still
lots of fun. Good to hear so much activity.
MarilyninOttawa
Thanks to Kathy for organizing the prechat.
N_Calif_Kathy
Thanks to Janette h for suggesting the topic. It was one I didn't
realize I knew nothing about till I started researching it. |